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Perdona ,pero no fueron portugueses ,y no tengo nada contra Portugal ,has escuchado el vídeo ?

TAKE THE HATE OUT UR HEART, IT SEEMS TO ME LIKE YOU HAVE A BIGGER ISSUE THAN THE LATEEN SAIL.

@@alshalateeni6133 it is not hate, I am aware of the conteibutions of the arab World. For example yñthe numeroc system and maths, witch are not based in roman numerics but in arab. Also the introduction of inportant crops and dishes in Spain as tomatoes, Rice, swets etc. Aswell as important architecture design and tech. But not everything is arab.

like the roblox game? same

@user-wv1pj6wh4h NO. It has not been agreed among those who research the origin of the lateen sail. The origen is uncertain. Many believe that the lateen was developed by several different cultures at the same time - as I said - just like the discovery of how to make fire and smelt metals.

@user-wv1pj6wh4h Obviously, you are ideologically welded to your opinion, so I'll just leave it with this: The name Lateen was given by the French who saw these triangular sails being used well before Portugal became a power. They translated the Lateen from Latin Tringular sails that were common throughout the Med were of differeing kinds, but ALL were called lateen by the French and others who traded in the Med. It is no surprise that modifications by different groups of users took place, That does NOT mean that one or the other ceased to be a triangular sail commonly known as the Lateen. There remains today NO eveidence that one of those groups gets the credit for inventing the Latin Sail - period. The earliest known depictions of a triangular sail is from ancient Egypt - well before the Portugese emerged from their caves. From the Egyptions, the Arabs refined it - spreading quickly to every one else in the Med - then noticed and named Lateen by the French, who have a Med coastline. The Portugese were fantastic sailors, sailed as far as North America to fish, most l;ikely using the Portugese version of the Lateen on their fishing boats - some of which were as large as galleons. But, they cannot claim to have been the origonators of the triangular/Lateen sail. If I rig a tringular sail on my skiff, instead of a lug rig - arranged like a Greek fishing boat, is that NOT a lateen, just because it might be lashed differently from a porugese triangluar sail? No. They are BOTH Lateens. I'm done here. Good day.

@user-wv1pj6wh4h Whatever you say, mate. It's your world.

Dude its arabs not indian

That makes good sense. Thank you. 20 MPH! I have some anthropological training and this teaches me the diversity and thoughtfulness of all cultures. The identical same four 'Thought Styles' (and permutations thereof) that are familiar in 'advanced' societies are found in 'primitive' societies too. Michael Thompson and Mary Douglas are a good introduction to Cultural Theory and he is clear that there is NO DIFFERENCE between the sophistication of, say, European now and any place or time in the past. Incidentally Mathematics and Astronomy were far more advanced in India and West Asia than in Europe for many centuries and 'Western Thought' relies heavily on the Arab Translation Movement which made Greek Philosophy known after re-translation into European languages. The important distinction between 'fact' and 'value' or between religious conviction and science, also 'secularism' are the work of Arabic scholarship, though I dare say similar thoughts occurred in many places before David Hume expressed them during the 'Scottish Enlightenment'. A lot of this is forgotten conveniently BOTH by those who wish to assert the superiority of what they assume to be 'Western Values' AND by religious fundamentalists neo-racists out to murder 'secularists'. It is important to put right the history of the lateen sail because ignorance about it parallels ignorance of many aspects of cultural life. Many thanks for your posts! Can I recommend a book called 'The History of the World Until Yesterday'?

@@stephensmith799 I like how you did that: Working your anti-Western bias into a discussion about the origin of a sail type. You must be a professor with a bunch of letters after your name, like PhD ( Piled high and Deep) But enough of that. Just because the Spanish mentioned fast boats in the South Seas does not mean they originated there. It just means they saw fast boats using that sail or something very like it. Most likely NOT the Lateen, but the crab claw. And, so all things can be seen equally, the natives did not propel their large trans island boats that fast - probably just the smaller ones made from a single dugout log. NO replica war vessel or large trade boat from Polynesia is going to go 20mph. As I wrote earlier, it is very likely that the lateen type was invented rather simultaneously, as other tools were, around the globe - but it was perfected in the Med by the Ottomans, and copied by the Genoese, Venetians, the Greeks, and other western states. No culture has the blueprint for the lateen, just as no culture has the corner market on intelligence - just outcomes. By the way, we aren't mentioning the Chinese, who sailed from China to East Africa I great fleets using huge ships. They were propelled by - not the lateen - but the Lug sail. Fully battened and very hard to overtake going downwind.

@@OutnBacker I think you make my point very well. Fore and aft sails with or without luffs were developed all over the place. As you know they are far better than square rigs for sailing into the wind. I wasn't making the 20mph claim, by the way, but as you know fore-and-aft rigs can drive a vessel much faster on a beam reach than a square rig, and much, much faster to windward. Wherever it originated, the British Royal Navy and Merchant Marine were very slow in adopting it. I'm not sure why you think I have an 'anti-Western bias'. Weird assumption. Read what I wrote. It is a matter of record that some key features of what are now assumed to be 'Western thinking' came from South- and West-Asia, particularly the notion that matters of science are absolutely distinct from matters of faith and value (secularism). Check out where the number Zero originated and who figured out first that the Earth was round, circled the Sun and estimated the Earth's circumference with remarkable accuracy. He did it by having two exactly vertical holes dug, using a plumb line to ensure each struck a 90 degree angle to a tangent with the Earth's surface. The holes were a measured distance apart, the first located dead on the equator so that the sun shone directly to the bottom of the hole. At the second hole (that measured distance away from the equator) he measured the angle of the sun's shadow cast down the hole, again at midday. He knew enough trigonometry to use this data to measure the size of the Earth and an estimate for the Sun's distance It doesn't matter to me where these ideas came from or that they were developed by folks who were not called 'Smith' or 'Johnson'. All I care about is whether or not they work ;-)

@@stephensmith799 "A lot of this [broader knowledge outside of European thinking] is forgotten conveniently BOTH by those who wish to assert the superiority of what they assume to be 'Western Values' AND by religious fundamentalists neo-racists out to murder 'secularists'. " Sorry, perhaps I'm mistaken, but that quote seems to me to be pretty clearly anti-western. I don't even think in terms of racism in the 15th or 16th centuries - or anytime up until it became a rallying cry in politics. To view history through the political/social lens of the 21st century is academically and intellectually dishonest. Everyone was racist by today's standards back then. All took slaves. All denigrated other cultures. The Ottomans took slaves by the millions with lateen sails. The Europeans adopted the type to escape the Ottomans - who got it from somewhere else, maybe going back to the Egyptians. If the lack of enthusiasm for the lateen by the British admiralty was true - and it likely was - then it may indicate several things, not the least would be the vast size of the British bureaucracy regarding the Navy. It took a lot of shouting to get the US navy to strip their deck guns and go to missiles, too. Aircraft carriers were a threat to the battleship admirals, as well. It could simply be that the huge, heavy ships of the line could not be efficiently driven by the size of lateen sails that would need to be rigged. The Ottoman galleys were powered by oars and sails, for good reason. They could not tack quickly enough to maneuver in battle, being long and narrow. So, they remained light and as nimble as possible. That, more than any other factor, would make the case for the lateen sail. European galleons (later frigates), on the other hand were faster tacking due to the ability to fine tune all those sails in sequence thru the turn and could carry impossible amounts of armaments. There is no question that, by itself, the lateen on a small to moderate weighted craft is superior in most respects. Personally, on my Grumman 18 canoe trimaran, I prefer a large standing lug sail (an evolutionary step forward from the square sail) and a working jib.

The lateen sail was known and used in Spain and the mediterranean long before spanish or any european "disxovered" the pacific. Spanish and europeans were impressed by the multihulls in the pacific, but not by the sails.

Stephen Smith for more on the lateen sails, you can look up Isla de Ladrones history or the island of lateen sails. Our ancestors here in the Marianas islands were the first to inhabit Oceania and had the fastest Proas.

Stephen, there is simply no evidence of the use of lateen sails in the indian ocean as far back as it is attested in greco-roman archaeological evidence. It was not introduced by the Arabs, most likely adopted by the arabs from the mediterranean shores. The development of triangular sails in the Pacific is most likely a separate and independent phenomenon.

Dario Garuti Thanks. Yes, the invention of the same sale independently in different regions is very plausible.

We may never know for certain. However, the square sail to assist an oared ship down wind is a very simple and obvious design. A lateen, or any other fore and aft sail that is better suited to beating into the wind is less obvious. It is easy to imagine the following sequence of events (1) simple square sail for running before the wind (2) learning to trim the sail to sail diagonally down wind (broad reach) (3) learning to trim the sail and design the hull to allow sailing directly across the wind (beam reach) (4) taking that a step further and making some headway upwind (beating), followed by (5) variations of the lugsail, which is a sort of asymmetric square sail, better suited to beating into the wind. (Strictly, there are several sorts of lugsail including dipping, standing, balanced, and Chinese (fully battened), all of which are fore and aft sails with 4 sides. The lateen is quite similar in many ways to a lugsail, except that it has only 3 sides. I see this sequence of development, or something similar to it, as more likely than (1) starting off with the lateen, which requires a long yard, skill to set, and considerable effort to change tack then "developing" the simple square sail from it. It would be like inventing the caterpillar track before the wheel. It is likely that there were several separate and independent developments, but everything suggests the simple square sail as the most likely first stage. My own boat has a balanced lug sail. Incidentally, you say that the lateen is "more efficient" than a square sail. Yes, it is on a beam reach or beat, where aerodynamic lift comes into play, but when running down wind, a square sail is a better shape.

the vikings used their square sails as fore and aft,similar to a lug.check out videos

It was used already in the first centuries after christ by the romans.

Dario Garuti lateen sails were invented way before Christ birth and it originates from the Marianas Islands that's history you never read about. Our Proas were the fastest ever recorded by Spanish historians and then later they practically killed off all the warriors and canoe builders because they were threatened by the islanders intelligence and ocean voyaging skills that requires zero instrumentation. As a matter of fact the Spaniards were lost here in the Western Pacific and they stumbled across Guam and the Northern Marianas islands by accident. The world should know and needs to know the skillful nature of these people from here for further study please see "Isla de Ladrones or Islands of the Lateen Sails". Be it also known that the design of these Flying Proas with Lateen sails have been used all around the world to include sailing clubs in Britain about the mid 1800's and still used today. However most people in the world regard these Proas as of Polynesian invention. Our Polynesian brothers did have similar Proas but ours had a unique design in the hull structure found only here in this region. Islanders here would sail north to the northern islands and then place the sail on the other end of the Proa and sail back without having to turn the boat around. Hope you find the lost history of the Lateen Sails as intriguing / interesting as I did.

Perhaps you don't know that the lateen sail was used throughout the late antiquity and middle ages in the mediterranean. It was probably invented independently also in the pacific. Are you so misinformed to say that the Spaniards who stumbled into the marianas didn't know the use of lateen sails?

The latin sail as we know-it was perfected by portuguese sailors in 15th century for the oceanic sailing. This with the know-how from arabs and other mediterranian sea people, like venicians. The latin sail was then implemented in increasing big vessels like caravels and naus. Long before castilian sail west to pacific ocean And also other cultures could probably paralelly invented other triangular shaped sails.

@@dariogar92modena And later by the catalans (spanish crhistian kingdom of Aragon) of course catalans developed or adapted the sail from well known amcient roman customs and technology. Lets not forget that Spain was omce a province of Rome (Hispania) the irrigation is anotlher exemple of how technology is wrongly and falsely credited to arabs

No. It is an arabic invintion. The greeks never used it.

The mediterranian "latin" sail, definately derived from the sails used in the red sea/ Persian gulf/ indian ocean long before.(dhow/dhau) Without good knowledge I would say it could have come from the gulf region, West India (Kerbala), East Afrika (the region around: kilwa, sansibar, mombasa), or even further east ( indonesia, polynesia) Althou the Arabic tribes, specialised primarily in trade throu the desert bevor the Arabian Expansion /spread of islam, I'm sure they at least knew about this type of sailing long bevor conquering Egypt.

It's Austronesian/Polynesian not Roman, Roman Row their boat🤣

@@deltahunter2302 The Polynesian Crab's Claw sail, while similar to the Lateen, and arguably better than it, is definitely an independent development.

@@J-IFWBR My understanding is that dhows started appearing in the Indian Ocean a bit earlier than AD 1000, which is definitely later than our Byzantine sources. I'd be glad to be shown wrong by a pointer to some academic papers or a Museum reference, though. Although while the Arabs might have seen Lateen or Square sails before conquering Egypt, as desert nomads, they probably never built or operated them before the 7th Century, so my point still stands.